— If you allow me, Anatoliy Hlibovych, I would like to start with what I consider a worldview question: in your opinion, what is the main value of science? And what is science valuable for you personally?
— Your question already contains the answer: science is a worldview, it is a picture of the world. And this is its main value. In a broad sense, science is the understanding of reality, and therefore freedom, it is the courage to look reality in the eye and see it as it is. Which, by the way, can be a painful experience. Science is born from our "built-in option" — natural curiosity — and tries to "peek behind the scenes" of the universe on macro-, meso-, and micro-levels. But it is not only a tool for cognition but also for transforming the world. And this is its second great value. In short, science is a sphere of human activity aimed at understanding the laws of development of nature and society and using its achievements for the benefit of humanity. Its state, in my opinion, is the main sign of a society’s maturity. Although, unfortunately, sometimes certain threats arise related to the improper application of new knowledge and technologies. But I try to look at such unfortunate cases without excessive emotions and believe that sooner or later humanity will mature to the point where scientific achievements are used only for its benefit. At least so far, everything has been moving in that direction, though not always by a straight path.
Personally, science has always been valuable to me because it allows me to approach the understanding of the foundations of the universe and try to grasp something still unknown. It gives pleasure and an incomparable feeling of involvement in acquiring new knowledge.
— Who were your teachers in science? Whom did you look up to and still look up to today? And why? What character traits are important for a scientist to have, and what should one be prepared for when choosing science as a profession?
— I have always been lucky with mentors. I am proud that I lived at the same time as the luminaries of Ukrainian and world science and had the honor to work with many of them. First of all, I must mention academician Viktor Petrovych Shestopalov, who helped me get involved in research already from the second year at the Kharkiv Institute of Radio Electronics. So my scientific trajectory began quite early and, importantly, under the guidance of well-known specialists who approached involving young people not formally and supported interested students. And in science, the start is very important.
In the fourth year, I came under the reliable guidance of Ivan Petrovych Yakymenko, and later — thanks to Ivan Petrovych — to Oleksiy Hryhorovych Sytenko, who at that time, in the early 1970s, headed the department of nuclear theory and nuclear reactions at the newly established Institute of Theoretical Physics. This decided my further fate. The Institute was bustling with scientific life, attracting the best theorists due to the high level of research — both for work and for very high-level conferences. For me, this became a great life and professional school. Now I cannot imagine how my fate would have turned out if I had not had the fortune to get into the Institute of Theoretical Physics.
And the Institute itself cannot be imagined without academician Mykola Mykolayovych Boholiubov, its outstanding founder and first director. Although he was not my direct teacher, I consider myself connected to his scientific school. He was, without exaggeration, a genius who changed the "landscape" of entire fields of science and founded new ones. Being scientific heirs and continuators of the work of such great people is a great fortune.
It was impossible not to admire Mykola Mykolayovych. He faced all possible calamities of the 20th century, but none of them managed to divert him from the path he chose.
I will not dwell on academician Boholiubov’s scientific achievements — much interesting literature has been written about them. But I will mention one example: his methods of nonlinear mechanics are precisely that high theory which turned out to be quite applicable and widely used in practice. And this is another stroke to the question of why fundamental science is needed. Because without a reliable theory, without understanding how the world is arranged and functions, any search for technical solutions can become a blind movement.
By the way, Mykola Mykolayovych never stopped and did not consider that he had reached perfection and exhausted the problem because he understood that with any progress, there are always more questions than answers. And with each new answer, a new question arises.
I believe academician Mykola Boholiubov also understood that although science is created by people, science is always greater than any, even the greatest, personality with the most outstanding achievements. From one understanding logically followed another: it is necessary to take care of who will do science tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. To prepare successors. For science to live and develop, continuous support of essential conditions is needed — finances and personnel. Money and people. And Mykola Mykolayovych understood this well when creating the Institute of Theoretical Physics. Such conditions may seem too mundane and completely devoid of romance, but these are realities. I would like the understanding of the importance of science and its support to accompany every team of Ukrainian managers at the highest state level. If they are truly statesmen and care about Ukraine’s future.
Another interesting fact: academician Boholiubov was ethnically Russian but considered himself Ukrainian. He registered as Ukrainian in all identity documents. This was very sincere and very important to him, but also a brave decision. Especially after the fabricated SVU trial by the authorities. He considered the Ukrainian language native, and Ukraine his second homeland. I would call all this an act of civic courage. Mykola Mykolayovych admired Shevchenko’s poetry, and among all cities, he loved Kyiv the most and compared it to Paris. Agree, this is a manifestation of deep respect for the land that became his home and for the people living on this land. And Mykola Mykolayovych’s respect was very effective. He consistently and unwaveringly worked to make Kyiv a world-class scientific center, so that Ukrainian scientists would be recognizable and have authority not only at home and not only within the former USSR but also in the international community. One can only imagine the efforts it took him to create such an elite scientific institution as the Institute of Theoretical Physics in Kyiv. And this was at a time when Ukraine was assigned the role of a resource periphery, which was supposed to supply the metropolis with the brightest minds. Today the Institute continues the traditions founded by academician Boholiubov and develops directions he considered most relevant. They remain on the agenda to this day. One way or another.
As for the traits essential for a scientific profession, first and foremost, it is curiosity. Without an inner drive, without interest and a desire to understand the world, scientific work becomes routine. If you choose science as your life’s work, regardless of the field, be prepared that you will have to study until the end of your career. Research does not stand still; there is no once-and-for-all given, unchanging truth. Science is a journey, not a destination. Science gives a lot but also demands a lot. Persistence, great work capacity, patience, flights of imagination, self-criticism, and even some self-irony. Most true scientists are quite unpretentious and have a rather modest opinion of their successes, even those marked by high awards. And success often comes to those who, despite unsuccessful attempts and unjustified hypotheses, do not despair but continue the search for truth. Be prepared that recognition will not come immediately. Especially when your works, as they say, are ahead of their time. In short, science is a marathon. Sometimes a marathon lasting a lifetime. For a true scientist, it usually does not fit into the traditional 9-to-5 framework. New ideas will accompany you outside of work and catch you at any moment. You will not be able to put thoughts about your scientific searches into one of the memory drawers and lock them there. That is why it is better to go into science by calling, not under the influence of circumstances. So, science is a matter for passionate and consistent people in their passion, tolerant of criticism (sometimes constructive, sometimes not so much). And in Ukraine — also for dedicated people. Those who do not wait for better times but continue to create.
— A leading direction of your research from the beginning was plasma physics. Please explain, in simple terms, what plasma is and what makes it special. Why is this research direction worth attention, and what fundamental questions of the universe can it answer? And what from plasma physics is important for everyone to know?
— Very briefly and very simply, plasma is matter in an ionized state, for example, ionized gas. What does this mean? It means that atoms and molecules that make up matter have lost one or more electrons for some reason and have become charged ions, and the electrons separated from the atoms and molecules are in a free state. In other words, plasma is matter that contains charged particles in a free state (i.e., not bound in atoms or molecules). In the case of so-called partially ionized plasma, neutral atoms and molecules are also part of it. The presence of free charged particles that interact through a long-range electromagnetic field (unlike the interaction of particles in neutral gas, which occurs only during collisions at distances comparable to the sizes of atoms or molecules) determines one of the most important properties of plasma — its collective dynamics. This circumstance is decisive for a number of fundamental properties of plasma, which make it different from systems consisting of neutral particles. It is precisely due to the long-range Coulomb interaction that many types of oscillations and waves can exist in plasma and their interaction can occur, resulting in changes in the frequencies of these waves, much more effective transport of particles and heat, changes in conditions for the propagation of electromagnetic waves, including the existence of frequency ranges in which radio waves cannot propagate (i.e., plasma can become opaque to electromagnetic signals of certain frequencies), which significantly affects radio communication.
There are several reasons for the plasma state of matter to arise. In particular, gas can be ionized by heating it to a high temperature. The ionization temperature depends on pressure and, depending on the type of gas, can range from several thousand to hundreds of thousands of degrees, and the higher the temperature, the higher the degree of ionization (i.e., the number of electrons separated from atoms or molecules). Matter can also be ionized by strong constant or alternating electric fields (as happens, for example, in fluorescent lamps). Powerful high-frequency electromagnetic fields, including laser radiation, can also be effective sources of ionization.
Plasma is widely represented in nature and in the laboratory. It is interstellar electron gas, solar wind (near Earth), magnetosphere and ionosphere of planets (including Earth), stars (including the Sun), comets, various sources of cosmic rays. Plasma is also present in comet tails and Saturn’s rings. This list could be continued. Speaking of plasma in laboratory conditions, it includes various gas discharges, plasma in controlled thermonuclear fusion devices and physical electronics devices, plasma in technological installations for cleaning and surface treatment (including in the manufacture of computer microchips), plasma welding and plasma spraying, etc. In everyday life — plasma displays and gas discharge lamps, ozonators.
One of the most important applications of plasma is its use for controlled thermonuclear fusion. This refers to creating a nuclear reaction with the release of additional energy using plasma, similar to how heat is released during chemical combustion reactions. The difference is that the reaction involves atomic nuclei (for example, isotopes of hydrogen — deuterium and tritium), not molecules. Attempts to use plasma to obtain energy through fusion reactions began at the end of the 1940s. Since then, research in this direction has developed in many countries. To realize the conditions of the reaction, devices with magnetic plasma confinement — tokamaks and stellarators — were proposed and created. These are toroidal devices in which plasma is confined by strong magnetic fields of a special configuration that prevent contact of high-temperature plasma (with temperatures in the millions of degrees) with the reactor walls.
One of the main obstacles to the realization of controlled thermonuclear fusion has been plasma instabilities (a phenomenon characterized by the growth over time of the amplitude of wave disturbances due to the transfer of energy to oscillations and waves during plasma heating). This state is called turbulent and is characterized by abnormally intense diffusion of particles and heat transport, which prevents effective confinement and heating of plasma. By the way, research of such processes based on sequential statistical theory was one of the directions of my scientific activity as a theoretical physicist.
Today, most technical and fundamental problems of controlled thermonuclear fusion with magnetic plasma confinement are considered solved or are in the process of being solved, and the international community has begun implementing the ITER project, aimed at creating and commissioning a demonstration nuclear reactor that will have a positive energy output, i.e., the energy obtained as a result of the thermonuclear reaction will be greater than the energy spent to maintain the reactor’s operation. Construction is underway at the Cadarache nuclear center (France). Completion is planned for 2035.
Of course, controlled thermonuclear fusion is not the only issue in plasma physics, although probably the most popular and understandable to a wide audience. Without plasma physics, it is impossible to explain how the Universe evolves (in particular, according to modern ideas, there was a "plasma era" in its history). Nor can magnetic storms, which directly affect our planet, be explained.
— Being President of the highest scientific organization of the state, especially during wartime, is a great challenge and test. Do you manage to find time for research? If yes — what exactly do you study?
— A high position is always an honor and responsibility, not a privilege. Especially in times of war. The Academy has nearly one and a half hundred scientific institutions where more than twenty thousand people conduct research. They work under extremely difficult conditions: under shelling, without heating, with constant power outages, in anxiety for their lives, their loved ones, and our country. Therefore, undoubtedly, neither I, as President of the Academy, nor the Presidium have the right to weakness and rest because behind us are teams of devoted, unbreakable people who entrusted us with the leadership of Ukraine’s highest scientific organization.
Frankly, administrative work takes the lion’s share of my time, and there is not as much left for research as I would like, and not as much as at the beginning of my scientific career. But I firmly believe that even in a leadership position... moreover, especially in a leadership position in the scientific field, a person should not lose contact with real science. For me, this is fundamental. Besides, it is important to be interested in news in related (and not only related) fields. This helps to see the bigger picture at least in general terms, catch trends, and identify new opportunities and prospects. And they appear almost daily. So I try not to fall out of the scientific process.
Now, closer to specifics. Recently, as before, I work on fundamental questions of statistical physics and kinetic theory of many-particle systems, as well as nonlinear particle dynamics. I am primarily interested in nonequilibrium processes, fluctuations, and statistical regularities observed in various physical media — from plasma to condensed matter. At the same time, I try to describe the properties of physical systems based on first principles, i.e., on the basis of basic laws of physics.
One of the problems I work on is the development of statistical theory that can describe non-ideal and nonequilibrium systems. For this, an approach to describing nonequilibrium systems in energy space may prove useful, which is an extension of Gibbs’ approach for macroscopic systems under nonequilibrium conditions.
The statistical approach is also useful for applied tasks in studying specific physical media, including plasma. Among other things, I was interested in how heat and particles are transported in thermonuclear and dusty plasma. In cooperation with foreign colleagues, we, for example, substantiated a fluid model that gives the correct scaling of plasma confinement time with heating power. Does this have practical significance? I hope so. Since this model takes into account the features of transport processes in turbulent plasma, it can be useful for interpreting experiments and further developing the aforementioned thermonuclear fusion.
A separate direction of my scientific work is related to nonlinear and relativistic dynamics of charged particles in strong electromagnetic fields. We showed that under certain conditions, the energy and momentum of particles change abruptly, forming a stepwise structure. These results allow explaining effects previously observed in numerical simulations and at the same time reveal new mechanisms of particle acceleration. In particular, the obtained results indicate the fundamental possibility of accelerating electrons by transverse electromagnetic waves in vacuum both in the presence and absence of an external magnetic field.
All these studies continue and, I hope, will continue further.
— How do you see the future of science in general and specifically in your field? And how can science survive in a post-truth world?
— What the future of science will definitely not be is simple and cloudless. On the other hand, science and in science it has never been simple. New times are just new challenges, and post-truth is one of them. I unquestionably believe that science will remain the main tool for the development of civilization. We have no better one and, I think, never will. Science has demonstrated its effectiveness for centuries and helped humanity achieve an astonishing level of progress.
Science will certainly face strengthening trends of recent times — interdisciplinarity, internationalization, the spread of artificial intelligence technologies. Ukraine also has every chance to take a worthy place in the global scientific division of labor, so to speak. We have something to offer foreign partners, especially in mathematics, mechanics, physics and astronomy, earth sciences, materials science, chemistry, molecular biology, and many other fields.
As for the prospects of plasma physics specifically, it, in my opinion, has a great future. These studies, as already mentioned, can change energy, forecast space weather, offer new materials with unique properties for synthesis and processing using plasma.
What should science of the 21st and subsequent centuries be like? First of all, close to society and as open as possible. Communicate with the public and even involve it in research as much as possible. This is the most effective way to dispel pseudoscientific myths and get rid of propaganda clichés and ideological overlays inherited from the totalitarian system. Therefore, quality education for all must be a priority both for the state and for civil society. Science is truly very democratic. Science is a territory of creativity, freedom, and democracy. It helps us understand the world, navigate it, and thus makes us free, mobile, initiative, tolerant, and open to other views. Therefore, education and popularization of science are our lifeline for turbulent times. And, undoubtedly, science must be authoritative; in it, perhaps nowhere else, the institution of reputation must work. Science will be trusted if academic integrity does not remain empty words. I hope the recently adopted Law "On Academic Integrity" by our Parliament and signed by the President of Ukraine will serve this important cause.
We must realize that science is not a thing in itself; it does not live and cannot live separately from society. Therefore, what future awaits it depends on each of us, on whether we understand its power and significance, and whether, having understood, we support it. And it is undoubtedly worthy of support.
— Anatoliy Hlibovych, what would you like to wish the readers of the journal "Science and Scientometrics" at the end?
— I wish everyone what every Ukrainian dreams of now: victory and peace. And, of course, kindness and health. The rest will follow.
Interviewed by Snizhana MAZURENKO